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#37 Annie Duke: Getting Better by Being Wrong

The Knowledge Project

Shownote

I have wanted to do this interview for a long time. On this episode, I am thrilled to have Annie Duke, former professional poker player and author of the new book, Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074DG9LQF/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=farnamstreet-20&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B074DG9LQF&linkId=5367e389670dadeff27cddca33c4cf0f]. Annie has a very interesting background that makes her uniquely qualified to speak about high-level decision making. As an author, speaker, world-class poker player, and academic in the fields of psychology and cognitive theory, Annie understands the intersection of luck, skill, and making decisions in uncertain, chaotic environments better than most people on the planet. This is a whirlwind of an episode, and we cover all kinds of fascinating topics, including: * The strange circumstances that shifted Annie’s path from finishing a Ph.D. in linguistics to becoming a professional poker player * What it was like to be a female poker player in a predominantly male sport (especially before poker had become socially acceptable) * What drew Annie into such a high stakes, time-pressured environment and why she felt like poker was the perfect fit for her * How her graduate work in psychology informed the way she approached the game of poker — and helped her rack up wins * How she finds the signal in a very noisy stream of feedback * The big mistakes Annie noticed other players making that were stalling their progress in the game but allowed her to make giant leaps forward * The role that mental models played in her learning process (and which models Annie liked to lean on the most in a high stakes game) * The power of surrounding yourself with people that can help you expand your circle of competence — and how that made all the difference in Annie’s development as a player * Confirmatory and exploratory thought, and how one helps us to be “accurate” and one helps us to be “right.” * The secret pact you should be making with the people who are closest to you And so much more. This episode is just under two hours long, but there’s no fat in it. Annie delivers a masterclass in making the smartest decisions we can, even when our hubris insists otherwise. Do some finger stretches before hitting play, because you’re going to be taking some serious notes. Please enjoy the interview! *** Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/ [https://fs.blog/membership/]   Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ [https://fs.blog/newsletter/]   Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish [https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish]   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices [https://megaphone.fm/adchoices]

Highlights

In this wide-ranging, deeply insightful conversation, Annie Duke—former world-class poker player, cognitive scientist, and author of Thinking in Bets—unpacks how we really make decisions when outcomes are uncertain, feedback is misleading, and emotions run high.
09:18
Learning in real-world poker is not as simple as the view presented in Psych 1 textbooks, which emphasize feedback closely tied to decisions and actions for learning to occur.
21:23
Eric Seidel said there's nothing to learn from bad-beat stories—only strategy discussions drive improvement
29:26
Eric Seidel told the speaker that the goal should be accuracy, not just affirming priors, and would hold her accountable
32:03
Forming a group agreement provides immediate gratification for admitting mistakes and avoiding bad-beat stories
55:10
Being under scrutiny leads to decisions based on avoiding criticism rather than decision quality, which is an innovation killer
1:00:42
Resulting stifles innovation and harms long-term competitiveness
1:05:46
Leaders should memorialize the decision tree and assign probabilities to different scenarios, despite the fear of not being perfectly accurate
1:11:28
A premortem changes the concept of being a team-player by imagining goal failure to anticipate problems and adjust probabilities
1:13:47
Memorializing decisions and probabilities focuses on the decision-making process
1:22:01
Generic questions yield useless advice; specificity enables actionable insight
1:29:48
Knowing the outcome distorts analysis of the decision-making process because real decisions involve hidden information and luck
1:37:35
Saying 'I'm not sure' helps separate confidence from certainty
1:40:12
Expressing uncertainty makes one a more believable communicator
1:45:38
Embrace uncertainty to be a better decision-maker and more open-minded

Chapters

How a linguistics PhD detoured into the high-stakes world of poker
00:00
Why losing a hand teaches nothing—unless you stop telling yourself stories
12:22
What happens when your friends care more about truth than agreement
24:04
How a shared promise to be wrong together changes everything
32:03
What if your beliefs were percentages—not pronouncements?
43:40
Why the Seahawks’ Super Bowl call wasn’t stupid—and why we think it was
58:11
What happens when organizations stop rewarding luck and start rewarding smart risk
1:03:20
How arguing for the other side sharpens your judgment
1:08:43
Why your team’s real decision journal isn’t on paper—it’s in the room
1:13:47
What details actually matter when reviewing a decision—and which ones don’t
1:19:14
How knowing the result ruins your ability to learn anything useful
1:27:11
What if your team had a swear jar for 'I know for sure'?
1:32:36
Why sounding confident often makes you less believable
1:40:12
How talking to your future self helps you choose better today
1:45:38

Transcript

Shane Parrish: So I wanted to ask you about what your take on the morality of gambling is. Annie Duke: Oh, I wasn't expecting that question. Shane Parrish: Hello and welcome. I'm Shane Parrish and this is another episode of The Knowledge Project. This sh...