The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)
The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)
The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)
In this conversation, Edwin Chen, founder and CEO of Surge AI, shares insights from building one of the fastest billion-dollar companies in history—entirely bootstrapped and powered by a radical focus on quality. With a background spanning Google, Facebook, and Twitter, Chen offers a rare perspective on how elite data, human judgment, and long-term vision are shaping the future of AI in ways that challenge conventional Silicon Valley wisdom.
Surge AI achieved $1B in revenue with fewer than 100 employees by prioritizing high-quality data over scale, treating data curation as a machine learning problem akin to search ranking. The company’s success underscores a broader shift: lean, mission-driven teams can outperform larger organizations by focusing on real-world effectiveness rather than benchmark metrics. Chen critiques the overreliance on flawed AI benchmarks, advocating instead for human-led evaluations across domains like coding and physics to measure true progress. He believes AGI is still over a decade away and warns that current incentives misalign model development with societal benefit. Reinforcement learning environments—simulating complex, real-world tasks—are the next frontier, enabling AI to learn through interaction like humans. Surge emphasizes 'dream objective functions'—true goals beyond proxy metrics—and asserts that AI models will increasingly reflect the values of their creators, leading to divergent behaviors across labs. Founding Surge stemmed from Chen’s belief that shaping AI requires deep conviction, not blitzscaling.
08:55
08:55
Founders don't need to raise money or promote on Twitter to succeed.
12:05
12:05
Quality in AI data is determined by deep behavioral signals like response speed and coding patterns.
16:21
16:21
Human taste and judgment are key factors in AI success, as opposed to a robotic checklist approach
20:31
20:31
Surge AI annotators deeply evaluate model responses, checking code, equations, etc., in multiple dimensions.
26:54
26:54
The path taken to achieve AI goals matters more than short-term metrics.
28:33
28:33
Avoid pivoting; focus on one big idea you believe in.
33:07
33:07
Something new beyond LLMs is needed for AGI
39:39
39:39
Trajectories show how a model reaches an answer, which can be inefficient or involve many attempts
41:11
41:11
Evals are now used to reward models during training and to measure progress for selecting release-worthy checkpoints.
44:39
44:39
The end-goal might be exposing AI to an environment for evolution, and this could be the last step before reaching AGI.
44:39
44:39
The founder values research over just revenue and would rather push the research frontier like Terrence Tao.
48:07
48:07
The choice between an AI that maximizes engagement versus one that optimizes for productivity reveals how underlying objectives shape model behavior.
51:30
51:30
Mini apps in chatbots are under-hyped but hold significant potential
57:59
57:59
The deeper mission of AI training is to help customers define their dream objective functions.
