George Civeris joined us for a story about a starry-eyed idealist, a “good cause,” and some big egos. We are now on YouTube. Be sure to follow us on there at @DefectorMedia [https://www.youtube.com/@DefectorMedia] where you can watch today’s episode. Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets! [https://defector.com/normal-gossip-podcast] You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch [https://defectorstore.com/collections/normal-gossip] or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com [https://defector.com/products/normalgossip]. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/ [https://normalgossip.komi.io/] Episode transcript here [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XRUVSFS9GPOIRdWmjt-7MN1YgsY22C4RbEcf8e4Oiys/edit?usp=sharing]. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip [https://www.instagram.com/normalgossip/], and if you have gossip, email us at normalgossip@defector.com or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae [https://www.instagram.com/heyydnae/?hl=en]) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae [https://www.instagram.com/seera_sharae/?hl=en]) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira [https://instagram.com/jaetowlevieira?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==]). Our audio engineer is Samantha Gattsek. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Theme music composed by Hrishikesh Hirway. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia [https://www.radiotopia.fm/]. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices [https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices]