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Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)

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Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

2025/03/06
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

2025/03/06
OverviewShownoteHighlightsTranscriptChaptersPins

Shownote

Ivan Zhao is the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Ivan shares the untold story of Notion, from nearly running out of database space during Covid to finding product-market fit after several “lost years,” and the hard-won lessons along the way. — What you’ll ...

Highlights

In this episode, Lenny sits down with Ivan Zhao, co-founder and CEO of Notion, to explore the company’s journey from early struggles to becoming a widely used productivity platform. The conversation delves into the challenges of building a horizontal product, the importance of balancing personal values with business demands, and how tools can significantly enhance human potential. Ivan reflects on the near-collapse of Notion during the pandemic and the resilience that helped the company recover and grow.
16:37
The speaker jokes about a new vision of magnet tiles for software, emphasizing modularity and creativity like Legos.
17:14
Ivan and Simon laid off the team and moved to Japan to reset Notion's direction
18:54
Building for value is more lasting and fulfilling
25:08
Investors sent dog treats to the office as a sign of interest
29:56
Hiring people with diverse skills reduces overhead and increases talent density
34:28
Conference rooms are named after timeless tools in history to inspire long-lasting software creation.
37:21
Craft is the application of personal values to technical know-how, making trade-offs to create something new and useful.
38:44
The job of product and business makers is to find the sweet spot across multiple dimensions to create a durable product or business.
44:03
Deviation from core values causes 'organ rejection' among employees and customers.
49:13
Notion had to shard its database to scale during the pandemic
57:15
Using AI coding agents on knowledge-work 'Lego blocks' for vertical use cases.
1:02:41
Seeing people use Notion in public and make a living selling templates is fulfilling.
1:06:23
'Good artists copy, great artists steal' – the importance of interdisciplinary learning

Chapters

Introduction to Ivan Zhao
00:00
Ivan’s early life and education
04:41
Discovering the vision for Notion
07:46
The lost years of Notion
10:49
Rebuilding and perseverance
13:56
Layoffs and company morale
17:14
Advice for startup founders
18:53
Product-market fit
25:08
Staying lean and efficient
29:56
Creating a unique office culture
34:27
Craft and values: the foundation of Notion’s philosophy
37:20
Navigating tradeoffs in product and business building
38:44
Leadership and personal growth
41:24
Challenges and crises: lessons from Notion’s journey
49:11
Building horizontal software: joys and pains
51:08
Philosophy of tools and human potential
1:02:40
Lightning round and final thoughts
1:06:17

Transcript

Lenny Rachitsky: The way you described the early years of Notion, you described the first three to four years as the lost years. Ivan Zhao: We tried many different versions. The first version, okay, everybody can make and create their software. So let's j...