Ivan Zhao is the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Ivan shares the untold story of Notion, from nearly running out of database space during Covid to finding product-market fit after several “lost years,” and the hard-won lessons along the way. — What you’ll learn: 1. Why you sometimes need to “hide your vision” behind something people actually want—what Ivan calls “sugar-coating the broccoli” 2. How Ivan and his co-founder persevered through multiple product resets and complete code rewrites 3. Why Notion prioritized systems over headcount, keeping the team small and focused even at scale 4. Why Ivan believes in craft and values as the foundation for product development, balancing technical excellence with aesthetic sensibility 5. The surprising story of how Notion nearly collapsed during Covid when their single database almost ran out of space with only weeks to spare 6. Community-led growth tactics 7. Ivan’s unique journey from a small town in China 8. Much more — Brought to you by: • Eppo [https://www.geteppo.com/]—Run reliable, impactful experiments • Airtable ProductCentral [https://www.airtable.com/lenny]—Launch to new heights with a unified system for product development • Sinch [https://sinch.com/lenny]—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao] — Where to find Ivan Zhao: • X: https://x.com/ivanhzhao [https://x.com/ivanhzhao] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao/] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Ivan Zhao (04:41) Ivan’s early life and education (07:46) Discovering the vision for Notion (10:49) The lost years of Notion (13:56) Rebuilding and perseverance (17:14) Layoffs and company morale (18:53) Advice for startup founders (25:08) Product-market fit (29:56) Staying lean and efficient (34:27) Creating a unique office culture (37:20) Craft and values: the foundation of Notion’s philosophy (38:44) Navigating tradeoffs in product and business building (41:24) Leadership and personal growth (49:11) Challenges and crises: lessons from Notion’s journey (51:08) Building horizontal software: joys and pains (01:02:40) Philosophy of tools and human potential (01:06:17) Lightning round and final thoughts — Referenced: • Ürümqi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi] • Notion: https://www.notion.com/ [https://www.notion.com/] • SpongeBob SquarePants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants] • Augmenting Human Intellect: https://web.stanford.edu/class/history34q/readings/Engelbart/Engelbart_AugmentIntellect.html [https://web.stanford.edu/class/history34q/readings/Engelbart/Engelbart_AugmentIntellect.html] • Alan Kay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay] • Ted Nelson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson] • Steve Jobs on Why Computers Are Like a Bicycle for the Mind (1990): https://www.themarginalian.org/2011/12/21/steve-jobs-bicycle-for-the-mind-1990/ [https://www.themarginalian.org/2011/12/21/steve-jobs-bicycle-for-the-mind-1990/] • Xerox Alto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto] • React: https://react.dev/ [https://react.dev/] • Simon Last on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140/] • Magna-Tiles: https://www.magnatiles.com/ [https://www.magnatiles.com/] • Design on a deadline: How Notion pulled itself back from the brink of failure: https://www.figma.com/blog/design-on-a-deadline-how-notion-pulled-itself-back-from-the-brink-of-failure/ [https://www.figma.com/blog/design-on-a-deadline-how-notion-pulled-itself-back-from-the-brink-of-failure/] • Bryan Johnson on X: https://x.com/bryan_johnson [https://x.com/bryan_johnson] • Tobi Lütke’s leadership playbook: Playing infinite games, operating from first principles, and maximizing human potential (founder and CEO of Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook] • Smalltalk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk# [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#]: • Lisp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)] • DeepSeek: https://www.deepseek.com/ [https://www.deepseek.com/] • Shana Fisher: https://www.crunchbase.com/person/shana-fisher [https://www.crunchbase.com/person/shana-fisher] • LAMY 2000 fountain pens: https://www.jetpens.com/LAMY-2000-Fountain-Pens/ [https://www.jetpens.com/LAMY-2000-Fountain-Pens/ct/1542] • Macintosh 128K: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_128K [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_128K] • Toshiba rice cooker: https://www.toshiba-lifestyle.com/us/cooking-appliances/rice-cooker [https://www.toshiba-lifestyle.com/us/cooking-appliances/rice-cooker] • Transistor radio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_radio [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_radio] • Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira [https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira] • Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ [https://www.salesforce.com/] • HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/ [https://www.hubspot.com/] • Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/ [https://www.zendesk.com/] • Misattributed McLuhan quote: https://mcluhangalaxy.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/we-shape-our-tools-and-thereafter-our-tools-shape-us/ [https://mcluhangalaxy.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/we-shape-our-tools-and-thereafter-our-tools-shape-us/] • Phin Barnes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phineasbarnes/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/phineasbarnes/] • Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/ [https://news.ycombinator.com/] • Pablo Picasso quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/629531-good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal#:~ [https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/629531-good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal#:~] • Connections with James Burke on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.484e32c5-60bd-4493-a800-e44fd0940312 [https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.484e32c5-60bd-4493-a800-e44fd0940312] • The Enneagram Institute: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ [https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/] — Recommended book: • The Romance of the Three Kingdoms: https://www.amazon.com/Romance-Three-Kingdoms-Luo-Guanzhong/dp/024133277X [https://www.amazon.com/Romance-Three-Kingdoms-Luo-Guanzhong/dp/024133277X] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]