Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)
Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)
Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)
In this episode, Lenny sits down with Ivan Zhao, co-founder and CEO of Notion, to explore the company’s journey from early struggles to becoming a widely used productivity platform. The conversation delves into the challenges of building a horizontal product, the importance of balancing personal values with business demands, and how tools can significantly enhance human potential. Ivan reflects on the near-collapse of Notion during the pandemic and the resilience that helped the company recover and grow.
Ivan Zhao shares insights on Notion’s evolution, including early missteps and the eventual discovery of product-market fit by reframing the product as accessible productivity software. He discusses the importance of perseverance, including multiple code rewrites and strategic resets. Notion’s philosophy of staying lean, prioritizing systems over headcount, and maintaining a strong craft-driven culture played a key role in its success. A major crisis during the pandemic—nearly exhausting database capacity—was overcome through technical innovation and quick decision-making. Ivan also highlights the value of learning from history, interdisciplinary thinking, and building tools that empower users beyond traditional technical barriers.
16:37
16:37
The speaker jokes about a new vision of magnet tiles for software, emphasizing modularity and creativity like Legos.
17:14
17:14
Ivan and Simon laid off the team and moved to Japan to reset Notion's direction
18:54
18:54
Building for value is more lasting and fulfilling
25:08
25:08
Investors sent dog treats to the office as a sign of interest
29:56
29:56
Hiring people with diverse skills reduces overhead and increases talent density
34:28
34:28
Conference rooms are named after timeless tools in history to inspire long-lasting software creation.
37:21
37:21
Craft is the application of personal values to technical know-how, making trade-offs to create something new and useful.
38:44
38:44
The job of product and business makers is to find the sweet spot across multiple dimensions to create a durable product or business.
44:03
44:03
Deviation from core values causes 'organ rejection' among employees and customers.
49:13
49:13
Notion had to shard its database to scale during the pandemic
57:15
57:15
Using AI coding agents on knowledge-work 'Lego blocks' for vertical use cases.
1:02:41
1:02:41
Seeing people use Notion in public and make a living selling templates is fulfilling.
1:06:23
1:06:23
'Good artists copy, great artists steal' – the importance of interdisciplinary learning
